A question of calcium

topic posted Wed, December 12, 2007 - 9:57 AM by  Unsubscribed
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hi people:

thoughts on calcium? it's my understanding that calcium cannot be absorbed by the body via standard supplementation, only through food. i can't remember where i read this claim.

i have done some googling and haven't been able to verify this claim. it wouldn't surprise me that it were true--i have somewhat of a dim view on the entire nutritional supplement industry.

has anyone heard anything similar to this?

what do you do to make sure you get enough calcium? do you think the requirements out there are too high or make sense? looking at the vegan foods that can provide calcium, it seems truly difficult to get enough based on the requirements i see from the RDA list.

i really don't want to be the old lady with a new broken bone every week (should i be so lucky to live that long)....but i'm loathe to take supplements if i can avoid it.

thoughts, o wise ones?
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    Re: A question of calcium

    Wed, December 12, 2007 - 4:38 PM
    In my opinion, Matt's right on with his recommendations. Leafy greens every day because they're such a FABULOUS source of calcium. (For instance, kale provides approximately 90 mg of calcium per 1/2 cup, compared to eggplant which has 3 mg per 1/2 cup.) Calcium requires vitamin D to be properly absorbed, so those who can't get the 15 minutes or so of sun per day should consider taking a vitamin D supplement.

    Personally, I have this sort of love/hate relationship with supplements.

    Diva, I feel supplements are relied on far too heavily by most people. Lots of people feel they can eat whatever they want, giving no thought to what they put in their mouth, and then feel they can just pop some supplements and call it a day. Supplements, when used, should simply "supplement" a HEALTHY diet.

    "what do you do to make sure you get enough calcium?"
    I include calcium-fortified foods in my diet (non-dairy milk and OJ, for instance). I DO take vitamin D, but only in the winter when I can't jog outside to get that sunshine. But that's the only supplement I take, besides whole food supplements (like blue-green algae). I've learned over the years that it's BEST to spread your calcium intake throughout the day (i.e. calcium-fortified OJ in the AM, hummus w/tahini and a handful of almonds for a snack, a tempeh dish with a side of kale for dinner).

    "do you think the requirements out there are too high or make sense?"
    These are simply my thoughts. I feel that because high amounts of animal protein can rob the calcium from our bones, the requirements are rather high to make up for this loss. For those of us who are vegetarian, we tend to eat more of the calcium-filled plant foods. And vegans are in an even better position since we contain NO animal protein (milk, eggs) which further ensure our bones hold onto that calcium.

    Supplements have their place when used cautiously and with smarts, with the emphasis on trying to do everything in your power to get the nutrients you need from whole food sources.

    Sassy :O)
    • Re: A question of calcium

      Wed, December 12, 2007 - 6:16 PM
      like i tell everyone else; eat some green stuff, and shut up.
      • Re: A question of calcium

        Wed, December 12, 2007 - 6:42 PM
        choper, I eat green stuff, not that I want to, but this vegan stuff has me painted into a corner, and I love coffee, migrains doncha know, and mom is shorter than me and insists that she used to be my height, and that my little bitty grandma was once my height as well. I'm need all the calcium I can get and need to be reminded of it.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: A question of calcium

          Wed, December 12, 2007 - 7:30 PM
          perhaps i should clarify my issue a bit.

          first, i drink NO caffeine. i also do not eat any cane sugar so a lot of the lovely calcium fortified products are off the list for me. boo.

          what started this whole dealio was me thinking that i was getting a lot of calcium because i do eat a ton of greens, every day. my lunch is almost always a massive salad with everything i can think of on there. but those greens are usually broccoli and spinach and mixed baby greens---that kind of stuff. today i got to wondering, am i really getting enough calcium from this stuff? after faffing around a bit, i found this chart below. if you believe that we need 1000 mgs of calcium a day, then it's not really as simple as just eating the greens. i like greens just fine, but most greens, other than collard and mustard, are not actually that high in calcium. for example, kale only has 179 mgs of calcium in a COOKED cup of it...meaning you need over five cups a day to get your RDA. broccoli? over 10 cups to get your RDA. 10 cups of broccoli??? soy milk is so low you need would need 12 cups to get to 1000 mgs. TWELVE! impossible. you'd have to search the world really hard to find someone who loves almond butter more than me...but 20 tablespoons of it daily means my ass is gonna look like the side of a barn.

          hence my questions. i'm really struggling with this. i don't want to take supplements if i can avoid it, because i agree with everyone who said that people would rather take a pill than do the right thing nutritionally, but i really cannot see eating enough of the foods on this list in enough of a quantity to get where i need to go. maybe this list is woefully incomplete?

          grrr. and thanks for playing along with my calcium trip.


          Blackstrap molasses 2 Tbsp 400
          Collard greens, cooked 1 cup 357
          Tofu, processed with
          calcium sulfate* 4 ounces 200-330
          Calcium-fortified orange juice 8 ounces 300
          Soy or ricemilk, commercial,
          calcium-fortified, plain 8 ounces 200-300
          Commercial soy yogurt, plain 6 ounces 80-250
          Turnip greens, cooked 1 cup 249
          Tofu, processed with nigari* 4 ounces 80-230
          Tempeh 1 cup 215
          Kale, cooked 1 cup 179
          Soybeans, cooked 1 cup 175
          Okra, cooked 1 cup 172
          Bok choy, cooked 1 cup 158
          Mustard greens, cooked 1 cup 152
          Tahini 2 Tbsp 128
          Broccoli, cooked 1 cup 94
          Almonds 1/4 cup 89
          Almond butter 2 Tbsp 86
          Soy milk, commercial, plain 8 ounces 80
          • Re: A question of calcium

            Thu, December 13, 2007 - 8:29 AM
            If you actually look at everything you would have to eat to fulfill all the daily recommend values for fats, vitamins, minerals, etc. on a whole foods (no supplements) vegan diet, it's basically impossible to do without stuffing yourself to the brim. I think Sassy is right, most of those daily recs are a little overkill, especially for vegans who do not have a problem with animal products making it more difficult to assimilate nutrients. If you're eating enough food to get you full at every meal, if you're not starving yourself, if you eat a big variety of fruits, veges, grains, legumes, etc., chances are you're getting plenty of every nutrient your body needs. Sassy's note on whole foods supplements is a good one though. Seaweed, flax seed, and nutritional yeast for example are all things most people wouldn't eat as part of a normal diet, but they contain lots of goodies for vegans. It's not really like popping pills though, because it can be incorporated into meals. When you take a concentrated calcium pill with 1000 mg or whatever, you'll be lucky if your body absorbs 5% of that.
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: A question of calcium

              Thu, December 13, 2007 - 8:57 AM
              "If you actually look at everything you would have to eat to fulfill all the daily recommend values for fats, vitamins, minerals, etc. on a whole foods (no supplements) vegan diet, it's basically impossible to do without stuffing yourself to the brim."

              PERFECTLY stated, and exactly my concern.

              i am about to start adding nutritional yeast into my diet; i'm yeast avoidant so i've been thinking i had to keep away but i just learned on sassy's fabulous website that it's inactive so it's OK!! goody for me, yummy "cheese" sauces on the future menus!

              i am not starving myself, i try to eat a variety of foods every day, and i get at LEAST five servings of fruits and veggies a day. i just wanted a little reassurance that i'm on the right track.

              thanks all.
              • Re: A question of calcium

                Thu, December 13, 2007 - 9:40 AM
                Best ever: seed milk! I've posted about this before, but instead of a glass of milk every morning, when I was growing up my mom made seed milk, out of sesame seeds. (Make sure they aren't hulled) You soak a 1/4 cup of sesame seeds in water overnight, and then blend it up in the morning. Then strain away the pulp, add more water, and blend in a banana or two. You could really use this as a base for a fruit smoothie too, I bet it would taste good and be rich in nutrients for your morning.
                Got seed?
                C
                • Re: A question of calcium

                  Thu, December 13, 2007 - 4:44 PM
                  the rda guidelines are for people doing gnarley farm work or training for war. are you doing one of those? prolly not, so don't trip. eat a lot of green stuff, and.... well, you know.
            • Re: A question of calcium

              Sun, December 16, 2007 - 6:53 PM
              the reason calcium requirements have been set so high in Western countries is because of the assumption that everyone is eating
              the standard extremely high animal protein, high fat American diet. You see, too much protein leaches calcium out of the bones, as well as does sugar, too much salt, and too much caffeine. If one is eating a sound vegetarian(or as pretty close to it as one can anyway)featuring many calcium rich foods, then one does not need 1000mg. of calcium to have enough. The requirements in this case can be well below 1000mg per day, making it much easier to get enough through vegetarian sources in the diet. And as far as general bone health goes, there's alot more to the story other than calcium. There are so many women who think all they have to do is pop a few calcium-magnesium pills and be done with it. Bones need a whole spectrum of minerals, and they also need resistance-type of activity to become strong flexible bones. Just taking calcium does strengthen, but the bone becomes hard and inflexible, still brittle enough to break too easily. those minerals can be obtained by eating PLENTY of vegetables and fruits, and if necessary supplementing with a good whole-food mineral supplement. I've seen some intriguing liquid mineral stuff out there which is supposedly better absorbed, important as we age.
  • Re: A question of calcium

    Thu, December 13, 2007 - 5:23 PM
    You know where the RDAs came from? In the 1940s, they surveyed what people were currently eating, assessed what vitamins made sense based on that info. So in other words, the numbers are a bunch of bunk.

    Also, people who drink milk and eat meat need more calcium to offset the acidic waste that comes from these things. And despite the fact that Americans eat more calcium than anywhere else, they still have some of the highest osteoperosis rates in the world. That's not because we're not eating enough calcium, it's because we're eating too many things that require calcium, so it's not going to our bones, where it needs to be.
    • Re: A question of calcium

      Thu, December 13, 2007 - 9:35 PM
      Yep, I think you are right!
      • Re: A question of calcium

        Fri, December 14, 2007 - 8:57 AM
        This was documented in great detail in the China Study. He blamed the high acidity levels of animal protein on the high rate of osteoporosis in developed countries (calcium is a base, so when your body is more acidic, it will leach more calcium from your bones).
        • Re: A question of calcium

          Mon, December 17, 2007 - 12:29 AM
          I have yet to read that book, and that makes me want to read it that much more. I don't know why I haven't gotten around to it yet....

          It's funny, cuz I didn't believe in the whole "acidic body" thing for a long time, until I read a paper that was meant to debunk the theory.

          The guy was talking about how it's impossible to have an acidic body because anytime your body senses acid, it pulls calcium from your bones immediately to neutralize it, and I thought "well duh, that's the problem!"
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: A question of calcium

            Mon, December 17, 2007 - 8:24 AM
            the information in this post has been extremely helpful...thank you all for your counsel and research skills. you guys all freakin rock!
  • HIGHLIGHTS from link and paste below ...

    * "—and this is why 'disease of calcium deficiency' from any natural diet is non-existent"

    * "Many people think osteoporosis is due to calcium deficiency; but this bone loss is primarily due to excess animal protein with its associated dietary acids."


    =========================================================
    October 2007 Vol. 6, No. 10
    www.drmcdougall.com/misc/200.../fav5.htm

    Calcium Requirements Much Lower Than Previously Estimated

    Calcium requirements: new estimations for men and women by cross-sectional statistical analyses of calcium balance data from metabolic studies by Curtiss D. Hunt published in the October 2007 issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition concluded, “The findings suggest that the calcium requirement for men and women is lower than previously estimated…the new balance data also concur with the recognition that saturation of the active transport component of calcium absorption occurs at an intake of 500 mg/day. The new estimation is in line with the previous consideration that individuals with low, but nutritionally adequate, intakes of sodium and protein may have calcium requirements as low as 500 mg/day.”

    Data was used from a series of tightly controlled metabolic in-house feeding studies conducted between 1976 and 1995 by the US Department of Agriculture to estimate the amount of dietary calcium needed to maintain a neutral calcium balance. The diets consumed by subjects were composed of ordinary Western foods. Diets lower in protein, acid, sodium, and caffeine (like the McDougall diet) would reduce human calcium requirements even further.

    Comment: Commonly recommended requirements for calcium are 1000 to 1200 mg a day. However, this study found that neutral calcium balance (when the calcium consumed equals the calcium lost in the urine and feces) was on average an intake of 741 mg/day. However, when calcium intakes were varied in the studies from 415 mg to 1740 mg per day the subjects still remained in a neutral balance. In other words, when fed a relatively low calcium diet (415 mg/day) the body would adjust; the intestines would more efficiently absorb calcium, the kidneys would conserve calcium, and the person’s needs were met (always). When overfed with calcium (1740 mg/day) the body also adjusts; the intestines block calcium absorption, the kidneys eliminate more calcium, and injuries (such as soft tissue calcification) from excess calcium are avoided. The body is so smart.

    Because of the innate intelligence of our intestines the most basic diets of starches, vegetables and fruits (without a speck of dairy foods) have sufficient calcium in them to meet our needs—and this is why “disease of calcium deficiency” from any natural diet is non-existent. Many people think osteoporosis is due to calcium deficiency; but this bone loss is primarily due to excess animal protein with its associated dietary acids. On the opposite end of intake, when we overdose with calcium by consuming glassfuls of milk or handfuls of calcium pills our gut saves us by blocking the absorption of this potentially toxic element. As mentioned above, “…saturation of the active transport component of calcium absorption occurs at an intake of 500 mg/day.”

    This review of the basic research should put to rest the message that large intakes of calcium are necessary for healthy bones—but it won’t, because of the money to be made by the dairy and calcium supplement industries. In addition to large quantities of calcium being unnecessary, dairy consumption brings these added risks: the fat and cholesterol cause heart disease, the sugar causes intestinal distress from lactose intolerance, and the contamination with environmental chemicals and microbes, including leukemia and AIDS viruses, is a very real threat.

    For more on dairy foods and calcium see my Hot Topics. ...
    www.drmcdougall.com/med_hot_calcium.html

    Hunt CD, Johnson LK. Calcium requirements: new estimations for men and women by cross-sectional statistical analyses of calcium balance data from metabolic studies. Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Oct;86(4):1054-63.

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